Comments on: Thinking vs. Awareness http://warriorsway.com/thinking-vs-awareness/ Warriors Way Blog Fri, 11 May 2012 22:04:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Arno Ilgner – Enjoying the Journey and Destination | Elevation Outdoors Magazine http://warriorsway.com/thinking-vs-awareness/comment-page-1/#comment-3763 Arno Ilgner – Enjoying the Journey and Destination | Elevation Outdoors Magazine Sat, 24 Mar 2012 21:38:01 +0000 http://warriorsway.com/?p=624#comment-3763 [...] nine percent of climbers don’t take appropriate risk decisions. They make decisions based on intellectual knowledge versus experience knowledge. In other words, they only use their intellect to assess risk. We teach the importance of actually [...] [...] nine percent of climbers don’t take appropriate risk decisions. They make decisions based on intellectual knowledge versus experience knowledge. In other words, they only use their intellect to assess risk. We teach the importance of actually [...]

]]> By: Arno http://warriorsway.com/thinking-vs-awareness/comment-page-1/#comment-153 Arno Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:16:56 +0000 http://warriorsway.com/?p=624#comment-153 Hi Dan, Yes, I think we're close in expressing, in words, the concept we're addressing. Your comment: Experiential knowledge can only be gained through awareness. If our attention is interrupted by thoughts (or anything else) and we are not focused on the experience at hand then we will fail to acquire experiential knowledge from the event. Yes, I'd argue that intellectual knowledge can also only be gained through awareness. Without awareness we are, well... unaware. We can thinking habitually in an unaware state, but we can't think actively or critically in an unaware state. - Your comment: It's that experiential is the only knowledge that is available to us if we are in a state of awareness (because in this state, the thinking mind and associated intellectual knowledge are ignored in favor of the senses). Again, it seems that you cannot gain intellectual knowledge without awareness, but yes, thinking and intellectual knowledge are ignored in favor of the senses. The senses help keep attention in the moment. If we are experiencing something, then we are aware if we are present (attention in the moment) for it. Senses help keep us present to what is occurring moment to moment. - Your last comment: Thank you for your question though, it helped me flesh out my thoughts on the subject. Yes, this discussion helps flesh out our intellectual knowledge. Were you aware while doing this? If so, then the process of developing intellectual knowledge also requires awareness. Now we just need to put it to work to convert it into experiential knowledge. Thanks, Arno Hi Dan, Yes, I think we’re close in expressing, in words, the concept we’re addressing.
Your comment: Experiential knowledge can only be gained through awareness. If our attention is interrupted by thoughts (or anything else) and we are not focused on the experience at hand then we will fail to acquire experiential knowledge from the event.
Yes, I’d argue that intellectual knowledge can also only be gained through awareness. Without awareness we are, well… unaware. We can thinking habitually in an unaware state, but we can’t think actively or critically in an unaware state.
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Your comment: It’s that experiential is the only knowledge that is available to us if we are in a state of awareness (because in this state, the thinking mind and associated intellectual knowledge are ignored in favor of the senses).
Again, it seems that you cannot gain intellectual knowledge without awareness, but yes, thinking and intellectual knowledge are ignored in favor of the senses. The senses help keep attention in the moment. If we are experiencing something, then we are aware if we are present (attention in the moment) for it. Senses help keep us present to what is occurring moment to moment.
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Your last comment: Thank you for your question though, it helped me flesh out my thoughts on the subject.
Yes, this discussion helps flesh out our intellectual knowledge. Were you aware while doing this? If so, then the process of developing intellectual knowledge also requires awareness. Now we just need to put it to work to convert it into experiential knowledge.
Thanks, Arno

]]> By: Dan http://warriorsway.com/thinking-vs-awareness/comment-page-1/#comment-152 Dan Fri, 05 Mar 2010 00:26:41 +0000 http://warriorsway.com/?p=624#comment-152 I think that maybe we're agreeing? It sounds like you're saying that during the learning process thinking leads to intellectual knowledge, and then we test that intellectual knowledge by opening our awareness while putting the new idea into practice to acquire experiential knowledge. So specifically, the same way that intellectual knowledge is acquired by thinking through a problem, experiential knowledge can only be gained through awareness. If our attention is interrupted by thoughts (or anything else) and we are not focused on the experience at hand then we will fail to acquire experiential knowledge from the event. For example, I have found that more often than not the things that I forget are the things that I wasn't really paying attention to in the first place because my mind was running around on some other errand while the event was happening. Climbing examples of this might include watching another climber attempt a route to gain some insight into how to tackle it, but instead of really focusing on what they are doing, one might be thinking about how they would make the next move them self, or how good one is going to feel once they finish the route,or about the fact that one is thirsty. Another example might be getting frustrated with your performance on a route and therefore being unable to make use of the feedback of a climbing partner that would help you through if you could just step out of the mire of frustration and focus on their recommendation objectively. The idea that I've been bouncing around is that the tie between awareness and experiential knowledge might also work in the opposite direction. It's that experiential is the only knowledge that is available to us if we are in a state of awareness (because in this state, the thinking mind and associated intellectual knowledge are ignored in favor of the senses). However, in writing this response I've realized that trying to get to the intellectual root of the knowledge available to us when we aren't thinking probably isn't very useful. Anything we decide on is going to be unavailable at the point one would put it into action anyway... Thank you for your question though, it helped me flesh out my thoughts on the subject. Dan I think that maybe we’re agreeing? It sounds like you’re saying that during the learning process thinking leads to intellectual knowledge, and then we test that intellectual knowledge by opening our awareness while putting the new idea into practice to acquire experiential knowledge.

So specifically, the same way that intellectual knowledge is acquired by thinking through a problem, experiential knowledge can only be gained through awareness. If our attention is interrupted by thoughts (or anything else) and we are not focused on the experience at hand then we will fail to acquire experiential knowledge from the event.

For example, I have found that more often than not the things that I forget are the things that I wasn’t really paying attention to in the first place because my mind was running around on some other errand while the event was happening.

Climbing examples of this might include watching another climber attempt a route to gain some insight into how to tackle it, but instead of really focusing on what they are doing, one might be thinking about how they would make the next move them self, or how good one is going to feel once they finish the route,or about the fact that one is thirsty.

Another example might be getting frustrated with your performance on a route and therefore being unable to make use of the feedback of a climbing partner that would help you through if you could just step out of the mire of frustration and focus on their recommendation objectively.

The idea that I’ve been bouncing around is that the tie between awareness and experiential knowledge might also work in the opposite direction. It’s that experiential is the only knowledge that is available to us if we are in a state of awareness (because in this state, the thinking mind and associated intellectual knowledge are ignored in favor of the senses).

However, in writing this response I’ve realized that trying to get to the intellectual root of the knowledge available to us when we aren’t thinking probably isn’t very useful. Anything we decide on is going to be unavailable at the point one would put it into action anyway…

Thank you for your question though, it helped me flesh out my thoughts on the subject.
Dan

]]> By: Arno http://warriorsway.com/thinking-vs-awareness/comment-page-1/#comment-150 Arno Thu, 04 Mar 2010 15:19:49 +0000 http://warriorsway.com/?p=624#comment-150 Hi Dan, "Getting experiential knowledge into place" is a constant process. So, there is a continual cycle between intellectualizing (thinking) about something and then experiencing (doing) it. The thinking mind does what it can to understand a situation but then we clarify that understanding through experience. So, the thinking mind does kinda "stand in" but we quickly set it aside and allow the body to "stand in" when having the experience. - Yes, the door does seem to be open to the mind intellectualizing about our state of awareness. That seems to be an important part of the process also. I read a book about awareness, get some ideas, and apply them to experience. For example: I read about broadening my attention with soft-eyes or peripheral focus, contemplate it (thinking), and then experience it by walking around with an expanded soft-eyes focus. When I'm experiencing it, I'm not thinking about what I'm doing other than reminding myself when I notice I'm back in narrow focus, so I can get back into broad focus. I'm interpreting my state of awareness when I'm reading. But, when I'm applying that interpreting to actual experience, my attention is simply on doing it, not interpreting it. What do you think? Arno Hi Dan, “Getting experiential knowledge into place” is a constant process. So, there is a continual cycle between intellectualizing (thinking) about something and then experiencing (doing) it. The thinking mind does what it can to understand a situation but then we clarify that understanding through experience. So, the thinking mind does kinda “stand in” but we quickly set it aside and allow the body to “stand in” when having the experience.
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Yes, the door does seem to be open to the mind intellectualizing about our state of awareness. That seems to be an important part of the process also. I read a book about awareness, get some ideas, and apply them to experience. For example: I read about broadening my attention with soft-eyes or peripheral focus, contemplate it (thinking), and then experience it by walking around with an expanded soft-eyes focus. When I’m experiencing it, I’m not thinking about what I’m doing other than reminding myself when I notice I’m back in narrow focus, so I can get back into broad focus. I’m interpreting my state of awareness when I’m reading. But, when I’m applying that interpreting to actual experience, my attention is simply on doing it, not interpreting it.
What do you think?
Arno

]]> By: Dan http://warriorsway.com/thinking-vs-awareness/comment-page-1/#comment-147 Dan Wed, 03 Mar 2010 17:39:42 +0000 http://warriorsway.com/?p=624#comment-147 Arno, You mention that you can easily see the tie between thinking and intellectual knowledge, but that it's not as clear cut between awareness and experiential knowledge. i definitely agree with you. I've been playing around with the notion thats that: 1) If a true state of awareness is completely free of thinking 2) and all intellectual knowledge is the direct result of thinking 3) then experiential knowledge is the only knowledge available to us when we are in a state of complete awareness. This knowledge can be innate things like proprioception and the physical size of our bodies to knowing from experience that the rope will hold in a fall. Until the experiential knowledge is in place, we must rely on our thinking minds as a stand in, and relying on the our thoughts opens the door to their interrupting our state of awareness. What do you think? Arno,
You mention that you can easily see the tie between thinking and intellectual knowledge, but that it’s not as clear cut between awareness and experiential knowledge. i definitely agree with you. I’ve been playing around with the notion thats that:
1) If a true state of awareness is completely free of thinking
2) and all intellectual knowledge is the direct result of thinking
3) then experiential knowledge is the only knowledge available to us when we are in a state of complete awareness.

This knowledge can be innate things like proprioception and the physical size of our bodies to knowing from experience that the rope will hold in a fall.

Until the experiential knowledge is in place, we must rely on our thinking minds as a stand in, and relying on the our thoughts opens the door to their interrupting our state of awareness.

What do you think?

]]> By: Robby http://warriorsway.com/thinking-vs-awareness/comment-page-1/#comment-54 Robby Sun, 13 Dec 2009 15:32:12 +0000 http://warriorsway.com/?p=624#comment-54 Yes, I like focusing on my breathing when I climb, and sometimes I need my belayer to remind me to do just that. I'm in the practice now of letting my belayer know that a small reminder to breath and relax helps tremondously. I will also give some practice to counting my moves as in the discussion in "When the Mind comes Forth." Who knows what will happen when I combine the two methods! Yes, I like focusing on my breathing when I climb, and sometimes I need my belayer to remind me to do just that. I’m in the practice now of letting my belayer know that a small reminder to breath and relax helps tremondously. I will also give some practice to counting my moves as in the discussion in “When the Mind comes Forth.” Who knows what will happen when I combine the two methods!

]]> By: Roxana http://warriorsway.com/thinking-vs-awareness/comment-page-1/#comment-52 Roxana Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:28:34 +0000 http://warriorsway.com/?p=624#comment-52 Hello, Tank you for your answers. It take time for me to change but because of that can be more stable when occur. I will do my best to follow your advice. Great posts! Thanks. Roxana Hello,
Tank you for your answers. It take time for me to change but because of that can be more stable when occur. I will do my best to follow your advice.
Great posts! Thanks. Roxana

]]> By: arno http://warriorsway.com/thinking-vs-awareness/comment-page-1/#comment-51 arno Sat, 12 Dec 2009 00:02:37 +0000 http://warriorsway.com/?p=624#comment-51 Hello Roxana, Your observations seem to be full of thoughts to analyse what could be causing this or that. Remember to continually practice shifting attention out of thinking and into your body and senses. When you notice yourself thinking...stop...and focus attention on breathing, what you can see, hear, feel. That's when you will be tapped into awareness and connected with your world. Arno Hello Roxana,
Your observations seem to be full of thoughts to analyse what could be causing this or that. Remember to continually practice shifting attention out of thinking and into your body and senses. When you notice yourself thinking…stop…and focus attention on breathing, what you can see, hear, feel. That’s when you will be tapped into awareness and connected with your world.
Arno

]]> By: arno http://warriorsway.com/thinking-vs-awareness/comment-page-1/#comment-41 arno Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:35:42 +0000 http://warriorsway.com/?p=624#comment-41 Hello Roxana, Awareness does go beyond the bounds of thinking but I'm not sure how it relates directly to what you describe as "what I haven't yet experienced." We have touched a little on the connection between thinking /intellectual knowledge and awareness / experiential knowledge. I see a stronger connection between thinking and intellectual knowledge; it is less obvious between awareness and experiential knowledge. However, having said that, it seems a large component of awareness originates with our physical senses (seeing, hearing, etc). There are probably deeper components of awareness that tap into intuition that I don't fully understand. - How does this tie to the ego? Ego is an image or identity we create that separates us from the rest of our world. Ego gives us a time-bound and physical (body) bound identity. Awareness connects us. The ego tends to be thought intensive so "thinking" could drive the construction of the ego. Perhaps this helps explain some of your questions? Arno Hello Roxana,
Awareness does go beyond the bounds of thinking but I’m not sure how it relates directly to what you describe as “what I haven’t yet experienced.” We have touched a little on the connection between thinking /intellectual knowledge and awareness / experiential knowledge. I see a stronger connection between thinking and intellectual knowledge; it is less obvious between awareness and experiential knowledge. However, having said that, it seems a large component of awareness originates with our physical senses (seeing, hearing, etc). There are probably deeper components of awareness that tap into intuition that I don’t fully understand.
-
How does this tie to the ego? Ego is an image or identity we create that separates us from the rest of our world. Ego gives us a time-bound and physical (body) bound identity. Awareness connects us. The ego tends to be thought intensive so “thinking” could drive the construction of the ego.
Perhaps this helps explain some of your questions?
Arno

]]> By: Roxana http://warriorsway.com/thinking-vs-awareness/comment-page-1/#comment-40 Roxana Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:26:32 +0000 http://warriorsway.com/?p=624#comment-40 The stress appears when I’m confronted with doing things differently. The stress is only when I don’t trust in awareness and trust only in rational thinking. In other words, my rational mind knows what I have already experienced, but awareness is about what I have not yet experienced; my desire to grow, to test my limits. To do this I must go beyond what I have already experienced, beyond my comfort zone. The root cause of this could be my Ego wanting an unchanged image of myself. is this accurate? Roxana The stress appears when I’m confronted with doing things differently. The stress is only when I don’t trust in awareness and trust only in rational thinking. In other words, my rational mind knows what I have already experienced, but awareness is about what I have not yet experienced; my desire to grow, to test my limits. To do this I must go beyond what I have already experienced, beyond my comfort zone. The root cause of this could be my Ego wanting an unchanged image of myself. is this accurate?
Roxana

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